Episode 02 welcomes Anab Jain—a designer, futuristi9/, filmmaker, educator, and co-founder and director of design and experiential futures studio Superflux—who invites us to conceptualize futuring, like art, as a creative modality and process. She speaks with host Radha Mistry about the power of harnessing storytelling’s inherent pathos, reevaluating human-centered value systems, and the importance of pushing ourselves into the imaginative space of the unknown.
Radha Mistry @radha_mistry
Anab Jain @anabjain
Deem @deemjournal
Find more information about Future Feelings, as well as our other podcast offerings at deemjournal.com/audio
00:20.89
Anab Jain
I'm Anab Jain and I'm a designer futurist filmmaker and educator.
00:26.24
Radha
Ah.
00:35.48
Anab Jain
And I'm currently based in London in the u k.
00:40.38
Radha
And anab. First of all, thank you so much for joining us I'm really really excited to be able to speak with you today? Um, for those of us who maybe aren't as familiar with the term futurist and for those of us who maybe have our own definitions. How do you define. What futurist looks like for you.
00:57.83
Anab Jain
Sure and I have to be honest I've been really reluctant to use that term for a long time because I'm not traditionally trained as a futurist and the profession is well known and established and it has a very rich history. Um, and. It is also um, well used in large corporations and governments to kind of help them navigate um trends and sort of ah has more of a um. History around prediction and measure and probability modeling and stuff like that and and but over the years the work we've been doing and at my studio you in superflux is really also a form of features but it is more around design and art and. Experience and sort of bringing these more creative aspects into the work of futures and I felt that as we were doing this work. It was important that this is also recognized as the work of a futurist and I also felt. Ah, bit as an ah bit bit of an outsider um in a quite traditionally ah quite kind of male and sort of sort of a certain type of person was doing futures and so I wanted to reclaim the term to be able to bring.
02:27.97
Anab Jain
Um, a more female a more color perspective of people of color into the work of futures.
02:38.43
Radha
Know and that and honestly that really resonates with me. It's one of the reasons why I still don't call myself a futurist I feel like it doesn't necessarily represent the versions of futurist that I have seen kind of before me. Um. You know I I kind of I call myself a designer that's as simple as I can keep it right now. But um, but you know I had the pleasure of sitting on a panel um with you and Brian David Johnson Bruce Sterling Julian Bleaker Alex Mcdowell
02:56.97
Anab Jain
Um, yeah, yes, yes.
03:08.84
Radha
And I you know we delved a little bit into design fiction and future studies. Um, and one of the comments you had made about kind of your way in really resonated with me which was that your way in was not through science fiction. Um.
03:22.32
Anab Jain
We.
03:26.18
Radha
And I I'm just wondering. Um, if you could share a little bit more about like how did you even happen upon future studies and speculative design like what was your your path through From. You know, um, like your earliest of memory like what's the thread that has kind of come from that all the way to like super flex and you know design studio of the year and yeah.
03:54.56
Anab Jain
Um, yeah, yeah, um, it is it has been a very um, sort of on planned journey like I grew up in amdabad in Gujarat in India and um. You know we I did not have any television. There was no access to kind of western sort of literature like so ah like popular science fiction ah books and films and you know we didn't have a Tv in our house till I was 12 or something. Um. And we only had one channel the national channel in hindi so in a way we were um, looking and reading a lot of sort of indian myths and um comics like amachitra catta or ah, you know.
04:35.34
Radha
Is.
04:50.56
Anab Jain
Epics like Muhabarra and Ramayan and many many such sort of um, ah, sort of stories and legends of you know multiverse multiverses and you know ah multi-species worlds and. It was ah it was very sort of there were no boundaries that this is this is a real world and even on the streets and all around me like you know we were living there were camels and there were cows and the buffaloes and you know everyone's just trying to figure out and navigate past this and feeding them so in a way. Um, ah, grew up. Um, in the context which was in some ways very um and non-constrained and then I studied filmmaking so I was also also really interested in taking this. Ah you know I was spending a lot of time in my own world building.
05:33.26
Radha
A.
05:44.67
Anab Jain
Um, stuff from a very young age and I went into doing filmmaking and sort of the the love for storytelling only grew and I did sort of come to the Uk to do what was called interaction design. But even then very influenced by. Tony Dun and fionah rabi who were just ah, brought on board and um were running the program called design interactions and again asking questions that were ah at top of my mind as well like what are. Not just the potential applications of technology. What are the implications. What does it mean to live in a world where we have to relate to such technologies for instance, like that was 1 question and so we were all thinking about ah the idea of the future in a much more.
06:26.14
Radha
Then.
06:35.44
Anab Jain
Sort of um, ah, elastic in a much more elastic Way. You know you were you were exploring um ideas about what the world would be like not just through research and Trends and Horizon scanning that was important but also through. Poetics through aesthetics through ah critical thinking through making and prototyping and so you start to see the influence that Story Materiality ah prototyping making something and touching and feeling. It. Has a huge impact on how we think about the future the decisions we make about the future and I suppose that's the journey I'm still on ah with the work we do at superflux. Yeah.
07:22.90
Radha
Um, and if.
07:27.80
Radha
Yeah, um, and I love that I think because so so much of my way in was also was through like design architecture making up story worlds building imaginaries. You know, um. Coming up through architecture and one of the things that I've heard you talk about time and time again is 2 things 1 this very kind of like making led process of exploration and discovery and 2 kind of wrapping that. Um.
08:02.41
Radha
You know, coming from this place of like deep emotional engagement with futures. Um, why has that become Why do you believe? that's such an important part of your practice like why does that matter.
08:17.42
Anab Jain
Um I um, we over the years have found and learned and observed and I would imagine have even enough evidence to quite sort of. Um, quite happily make a big assumption that projections about the future as consumed by people today are not directly correlating to the action that we need to take about where we're at so something is falling through the gaps.
08:50.86
Anab Jain
The mechanisms and tools that we have been applying to get us out of this problem that we are currently in are the same tools that we've used to get us into this problem in the first place so I have seen that. Showing someone a graph and showing someone projections um makes them realize that things are going to get bad but it doesn't touch them to the point that and they they feel the need to act but act on it immediately or in the foreseeable near future and.
09:22.55
Radha
Have one.
09:28.28
Anab Jain
I Think ah, we take ah an embodied approach to our practice. We are biologically wired and in in such a way that we we consumes stories and and and and and meet the world through stories. And ah, form opinions and um, navigate things through um, more tactile experiences. So I suppose fundamentally if if I can say that we are on a mission. To leave a lasting legacy for the future of our planet and its custodians that means we need to get anyone who has the slightest inclination to to do the same work come on Board. So Whether it's a big business or a government or a culture institution or an academic partner or an norforprofit or a community. Um.
10:36.66
Anab Jain
Okay, sorry so um, I'm just so as I was saying that I feel that um, whether we are working with businesses or government organizations or cultural institutes or academic partners. Those who recognize that things are not going in that linear future trajectory where things will be fine if you all can agree that the the current trajectory that we're headed on is not fine and we need to do something else about it.
16:41.11
Anab Jain
Really people can't see themselves in the future. They they see think of it as being someone else. So how can we sort of say what if it was this possible world. What would it mean you know in simple terms. What would it mean to step into a feature just 1 possible feature. And experience the sort of um world that you might find yourself in 1 in in a particular space and time whom do you meet whom do you interact with what do you use? What do you what do you eat you know simple simple fundamental questions and I found that.
17:19.36
Radha
Um, and.
17:20.30
Anab Jain
The difference between sitting and trying to tell that to someone and taking them through that sort of a more embodied experience in in. However, different means that you may want to do has a very different effect and you will not be able to immediately measure. They don't want to return to their. Office and make phone calls about changing the business models immediately. But what it does it starts to create memories in people's minds about other possibilities in a way that that data doesn't do so.. That's why I believe it's a very powerful form of features.
17:51.76
Radha
Mill.
17:56.27
Anab Jain
That we and many people we know practice and I feel the problem right now is that it's still not being acknowledged as a powerful form of features because and it questions and challenges. Ah a certain understanding of ways in which traditional decisions About. Futures have been made so in a way we may have a shop window of being a design Studio. We think that we ours is a project of slow critical activism. But we're not on the streets with blackguds we're trying to shift minds and hearts and souls.
18:32.12
Radha
Hi.
18:35.55
Anab Jain
1 project at a time. But.
18:43.26
Radha
1 of the one of the projects that I feel like really did this? Um, probably in a very like explicit way was mitigation of shock.
18:59.00
Radha
And I'm wondering if you could kind of walk us through a little bit of you know how that project came about and and why that has felt so um, why why? that has just felt like.
19:12.83
Anab Jain
Yeah, and so I suppose so John who's the co-founder of superflux with me and my partner he he was actually thinking about um climate change and climate crisis and.
19:16.11
Radha
So important in this moment.
19:28.60
Anab Jain
The the denialism around it from way back in 2005 and he was doing his master's thesis at the ah Rca and and he had gone quite sort of dystopian and created a post-colllase civilization and that sort of kind of trajectory of thinking. But so it had been something we were talking about a lot. After we set up superflux a few years later and um, we we have ah our practices sort of partly consulting and partly self-initiated more experimental research projects and we just fell we needed to do this. I suppose partly because our son was around 3 years ' time and you know when you are thinking about the futures and then you start thinking about these um little people in front of you and and you know how? um, easy it is to keep imagining.
20:21.61
Radha
Um, different.
20:25.36
Anab Jain
Um, not the first level second level but third level consequences of what their lives will be you like? Okay, let's let's really invest time in this and so we started doing some very hands-on research and prototyping. It's time to and and recognize very quickly that climate. Change like what even is that is this is this absolutely amorphous, big sort of word that doesn't really sort of mean much to people as such you know in in a lived reality and so we um. Ah, started asking a fundamental question that we felt people would relate to it which is like in a scenario where there is extreme weather events and where there's economic instabilities. What food will we eat and we just simply what food will we eat. How will we live it? What will our homes look like. And so that really triggered a series of very hands-on experiments John and my other colleagues who are far more ah skilled and equipped than I am side building food computers from scratch from found and discarded materials really trying to understand how fundamentally. Are we prepared to change how we live here in the western world if we were presented with this real crisis and had to learn to find other other means of growing food or or eating and and as we started doing this. We really kept kept that sort of.
21:58.42
Anab Jain
Idea of our then four 4 year old at that point in front of our eyes thinking if we were thinking of this home. Could we imagine that he would be living in this home when he was our age so that really took us into that space in the future where we could very.
22:05.82
Radha
A.
22:18.40
Anab Jain
Directly imagine him living in this this apartment and and and what that would mean and that brought that sort of emotional emotional sort of connection. To the work. It wasn't just an intellectual exercise. It wasn't just an art project. It wasn't just a speculative design project. It was our project of of really showing what we aren't doing but also what we could do and and actually realizing that the biggest problem.
22:44.76
Radha
A.
22:50.54
Radha
And then so.
22:53.79
Anab Jain
Is that it is really difficult for people to imagine anything else than what things look like right now people are really very easily able to say what they don't like about now but they really struggle with what the other thing could look like and.
23:05.86
Radha
Um, yeah, um.
23:13.49
Anab Jain
Generally the idea is that the other thing. Whatever it will be will be terrible and scary because it's unknown and so we we just have to be here in this and protect this and our project has been about how do we poke holes at the world and give people a glimpse of this other. And say that you know we we could thrive in this. We could actually be really happy and what does that look like and so I suppose that was the context of mitigation of shock and then you know sort of obsessive details around making sure that this home comes to life. In a way that whoever walks through the door can really start to um, see all the details of the newspapers and the radio show and the and the kitchen and the notes and the drawings and the recipes and the cookbooks and all these growing plants of using just fogponics. And no water or soil to grow things quickly. How all these things together tell a story of a different future nowhere did anybody see the words climate change foods and food Insecurity. These are the graphs. What we're going to do. They were able to take this in and leave.
24:21.34
Radha
Um, and then then.
24:26.88
Anab Jain
Hopefully with a very different understanding of what living in a climate altered world could look and feel like.
24:38.28
Radha
Yeah, and there's I think there's something so powerful about you know, um, near future Laboratory um, talk a little bit about this about those mundane futures right? um. About helping people to understand like what does breakfast look like how does that change in the morning or like how you get your news or whether you get to say hello to your significant other or your family member. Whatever it might be and I Think. Like scaling down of these very large sometimes overwhelming global drivers tends to be probably the most effective way for people to be able to kind of like place themselves in these alternate versions of what might happen. Um.
25:15.63
Anab Jain
Yeah.
25:22.65
Radha
And you did speak a little bit right to this kind of there is this disassociative property that happens kind of the further out we go into future where it feels less like a version of what our reality could be and more like a story. We're reading about somebody else. Um.
25:23.56
Anab Jain
Yeah.
25:33.50
Anab Jain
Yeah.
25:40.91
Radha
And I think what was really effective and really beautiful about the way that mitigation of shock was presented was you actually did take an apartment and redesign it. Um, so people could walk into this alternate space. Um.
25:47.90
Anab Jain
Yeah, yeah.
25:59.68
Radha
When you make projects like that. What is it that you're hoping to kind of you know and you spoke a little bit about um people being able to kind of understand what is what what other paths forward might look like um and to kind of help them envision that but 1 of the questions I get asked a lot.
26:08.81
Anab Jain
This.
26:18.43
Radha
Um, maybe more in like a corporate foresight context is what's the metric of success and I hate that question I'll say that right now I hate that question. Um, but I do I do sometimes like to reflect on like what does.
26:22.39
Anab Jain
Um.
26:36.97
Radha
It feel like to say we did what we set out to do here.
26:39.11
Anab Jain
Um, yeah I mean be get asked that all the time and um I I use the word impact we have to use it in our act. But I remember once I don't know.
26:48.11
Radha
Um, you.
26:53.20
Anab Jain
Um, was it also Franklin someone said that you know I'll meteor about about an impact is only most appropriate when you use it in the context of a meteor impact and that's how the words start and it's like it generally causes destruction.
27:07.57
Radha
Um, and.
27:09.12
Anab Jain
So and in terms of how do you measure impact is ah is worth kind of having a twist on that. But do you know? um I I cannot say I do not have the numbers and.
27:16.78
Radha
Is to be.
27:26.38
Anab Jain
To say so many people change their minds after visiting this exhibition and we since we have shown it across many countries in many museums for 5 years different versions of it. So there's obviously something that people are. Realizing that this is important to be shown in public spaces where you know we've had hundreds of thousands of people experience this work in different different from Singapore and parts of Europe and North America and other countries where actually it was created for a western context. Um.
28:04.97
Anab Jain
We do get so many emails from people during Covid they were like oh my God we visited it and I immediately knew because I was trying to get food delivered and nothing was and I was only trying to grow food after we'd seen this at home and not that it was going to fill fill us up but we knew how what the consequences are and ah so.
28:16.15
Radha
Are.
28:24.47
Anab Jain
We do get so many such so messages. But I think I want to flip that question and ask to the people who ask that question What show us the metric of success of the projections and future forecasts that have been made so far.
28:33.36
Radha
7
28:43.60
Anab Jain
That's the metric of success I Want to see because I think that you may you you could argue that if those other forms and other tools were successful. We wouldn't be in the mess we are in so and.
28:49.11
Radha
Um, when I.
29:02.47
Anab Jain
I Think it is really time for people to open up their minds to the possibility that there are alternative different complementary tools and methods and approaches that could be really valuable if we have the political will.
29:04.50
Radha
Um, is a.
29:20.12
Anab Jain
And the corporate will to change things.
29:27.47
Radha
Yeah, and and I think one of the I love that I wish I could bring that to like every Ceo that I have to be in a room with ah I don't know how well that would go over. Um.
29:34.64
Anab Jain
I hope.
29:42.57
Anab Jain
Is.
29:44.33
Radha
But I do think it begs the question of kind of like rethinking our approach our approach to who we center. Um, at the nucleuses of of narratives around futures right? And and one of the things that you've talked quite broadly about. Is kind of shifting perspective from a human- centered approach to design to a more than human- centered approach to design. Um, which when I've spoken with people about it think you know folks have said oh that's so provocative and it's like but it shouldn't be.
30:07.18
Anab Jain
Um, then.
30:17.40
Anab Jain
Um.
30:20.30
Radha
It should be something that's just in our daily kind of vernacular. Um can you share I mean where did that come from for you and and and why you know why does that feel like such a.
30:36.44
Anab Jain
Yeah, and and and and that's that that's a good question and and I do want to before I even talk about acknowledge that of course this is age-old thinking if you spoke to foresters or gardeners or you know poets and mothers and.
30:38.52
Radha
Pertinent part of of your practice.
30:54.54
Anab Jain
And people. Ah you know custodians of nature of different types stewards of nature if you like have been professing this idea for ah for Millennia if you like you know for as long as you know, ah various communities of indigenous people whom I grew around near in India but also in other parts of the world.
30:54.62
Radha
Um.
31:14.30
Anab Jain
But in in my world of design if you think it's the it's the object. It's the final product that you put out in the world and that is the outcome but when we were doing mitigation of shock because we were growing so many things. Um. And and testing what works quickly what can grow quickly if we had emergency scenarios and stuff and we were trying to grow these pink oyster mushrooms and they just wouldn't Grow. We put lots of different put them in lots of different environments and stuff and we so like okay, fine, leave them here and Then. Move them here move them then whatever and then suddenly months later someone looked and like oh look at this this massive giant Pink Oyster mushroom and bloomed and and we were like oh what like how and and then there was that moment like what happened how and then you know recognizing and.
32:05.53
Radha
Um, and.
32:07.64
Radha
If if if if.
32:11.28
Anab Jain
It was around 2017 2016 and I'd just finished reading mushroom at the end of the world by anaing at that point it had just come out that book I think and and it was clear. You know human disturbances are causing this mushroom to actually grow. We need humans to need to be part of it but the real. Sort of trying to grow things not working recognizing the capricious nature of things and you know we're so focused on the outcome but actually we cannot control it and spending so much time with things that we were growing around us in power is part of our work really brought me. Ah, in very close contact with this sort of recognization recognition that um, we we can't we can't continue in this human-centered way and really made me reflect about the design position of you know? um. Advocating for human-centeredness for so long and I completely do not want to suggest we shouldn't practice human-centered design because of course we must. But it is kind of adding to that. The idea that. Also consider a more than human-centered approach and there was around eighteen that I was giving a talk at the interaction design conference where there was a lot of emphasis on human centered it was really to get practitioners to think about what might a more than human-centered perspective mean and.
33:43.97
Anab Jain
Since then um, the last six seven years we've just sort of realized that the minute you're working with climate and that's a lot of lot of the work. We do. You cannot separate from biodiversity in nature. These aren't separate things cop might think they are but they're not so we've been.
34:03.80
Radha
Me.
34:03.56
Anab Jain
Really trying to weave together these ideas into whatever we do? yeah.
34:11.65
Radha
New and and I I mean I think it's you know it's a lot of the ways that if you're kind of introduced to maybe like a non-western approach to thinking about things you know we growing up.
34:30.30
Anab Jain
Um, yeah, yeah.
34:30.14
Radha
Didn't eat certain fruits and vegetables at certain times of the year because the earth did not provide them right? and and that's just also what made sense for your body. It was the healthiest thing at that time of the year um and so the consideration of of you know other living entities beyond.
34:37.62
Anab Jain
Um, yeah.
34:46.57
Anab Jain
It.
34:48.78
Radha
Ourselves was always kind of top of mind. Um, and so I think for some for some. It can feel quite natural but it does feel like in this moment especially when we think about climate change and solutioning to climate change that that feels so so so critical.
35:05.74
Anab Jain
Yeah, yeah, 100% I mean you know it's um, um, you know, ah it was listening to. You know everyone knows Robin Walcomro has become you know her book has become legendary.
35:06.55
Radha
As an approach to kind of addressing that.
35:19.59
Anab Jain
But um I was listening to one podcast where she's trying to get her biology students I think to to write about their love for the earth and apparently they were struggling a bit and then she she said but maybe think about what if the Earth Loved you back and. That sort of flip in the and and the provocation got them to really sort of open their minds to possibilities and then ideas were flowing freely and there was such sort of apparently beautiful work that emerged from the students and it's kind of really struck with me because.
35:41.90
Radha
Um.
35:58.39
Anab Jain
It is. We know it. You know we we all know it. But we forget about it in our daily lives and you know the Earth if if the Earth love if the Earth loves me back then I have. Bigger duty to love it back as Well. Like if I love it and love me back and that's sort of the it or she or they are all around us um without them beyond the minute you care about something and you love It. You will want to protect it.
36:16.43
Radha
A.
36:31.10
Radha
There is.
36:35.69
Anab Jain
And that sort of is the fundamental shift in in perspective. Yeah.
36:44.82
Anab Jain
Yeah.
36:46.80
Radha
Yeah, and you're kind of you're in dialogue with all of these things around you right? and I wanted to shift gears just a little bit because there's something that um that I've been thinking about as an educator. Um, you know the in my.
36:54.60
Anab Jain
Yes.
37:00.10
Anab Jain
Yeah.
37:03.00
Radha
My most recent semester teaching. Um I was teaching a bunch of graduate architecture students and teaching them a history and theory class around future studies and speculative design and and I had said to them. You know as designers you really are mediators of your future of our future environments. You get to kind of. Have this privilege of helping guide people through um, you know what might be possible. Yeah um I have lost you guys again.
37:31.48
Anab Jain
Yeah, um, we just.
37:39.30
Anab Jain
Um, and we can now see and hear you.
37:39.34
Radha
But everything looks great on my end. Oh no tear. Ah hi Okay, ah and I can ask I'm gonna hop in and hop out is that the best way to do this.
37:51.62
Anab Jain
Sure, Um, yeah, because you were asking me worries.
37:55.43
Radha
Is it zencast.
38:33.19
Anab Jain
No worries. It was good because it started when you started asking the question.
38:37.16
Radha
Um, okay, at least we? Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and like we didn't have to interrupt you and your train of thought so at least that half I'm so sorry. Um.
38:43.94
Anab Jain
Um, no, but don't worry show.
38:51.68
Radha
so so so I did want to switch gears a little bit because you know we both are. We're both educators as as in one of the many things that we do and um I'm I teach at a graduate architecture program here in Los Angeles and um.
39:08.70
Radha
And I teach on history on their history and theory class and one of the things that um, my class focuses on is future studies and speculative design and one of the things that I always saw um in my role as the designer was that you know we have this. Responsibility and maybe this kind of like privilege to be mediators of future environments right? and and that comes with a lot. Um, but it also means that like perhaps we can enact some change in our communities upon the world. Um, And. Um, and I had kind of brought this idea to my students and um, they you know a good majority of them said that they don't feel like they have the ability to actually drive change. Um, which was like which to me felt.
39:54.00
Anab Jain
His.
40:04.41
Radha
Like I could feel their energy was very. It was like depleting right? Um, and these are kids at these are you know, um kids at ah at ah at the Southern California institute of architecture. It's a very kind of emergent kind of approach to architectural design and practice. Um.
40:21.34
Radha
But that felt disheartening and I've been speaking about this with other kind of educators and practitioners. But I wonder if one if that's something that you're seeing and kind of an emerging generation of designers. Um, but 2
40:39.25
Radha
Can do you feel like the work we do and kind of an education in speculative design and future studies can help to remedy that a little bit.
40:50.62
Anab Jain
Wow, That's a really good question and um, it's yeah, it's a mixed bag. Um, um I E find on one hand.
41:05.90
Anab Jain
That there is an overwhelming sense of hopelessness and a feeling of powerlessness amongst younger people and for very obvious reasons they have been really messed around with you know they are a generation begging for a future and they cannot see one. Um, on the horizon. They cannot see one that feels ah like a truly radical vision that they can get behind. Where's the north star who's driving it. You know so I I feel on 1 hand that yes, um, there is that but then on the other hand. Um, I'm also seeing a lot more regret and determination from young people my own students. Um, interested in exploring these spaces and interested in using these tools and methods and approaches to. To show the possibilities and I think we have seen you know, um, entirely new configurations of how young people want to be addressed talked about talked to or with or ah. Presented or how they are represented their own cultures their identities they they have found platforms to be able to do to talk about these challenges um to speculative design and futures I think.
42:40.61
Anab Jain
I I Suddenly feel that there's a huge growing interest for that that and I think that's because um, there is a recognition that um if you if you if you can imagine it. You can create it and you can do something about it. And um, um, I'm so the the growing sense of discontent amongst young people who are equipped with these tools could mean there's hope for radical change. So I think that. I Almost see it as my responsibility as an educator to to equip my students with all these methods and approaches and Philos is about how to how to think about an alternate future so that they can affect change in the present. All this work is so that. They can start to implement that change today. So that that other future could actually be realized.
43:47.87
Radha
Um, no I love that and I think one of the things that um that you know my students kind of ask when they do learn about future studies is well. How do we get into this like how do we do this as a living.
43:59.43
Anab Jain
Um, yeah.
44:05.50
Radha
Um, and you know all I can kind of do is like share my path in which is very meandering and like very much stressed stressed out my super immigrant indian parents. You know? Um, but. You know to the to the young practitioner who's just very who's kind of perpetually curious like what would your advice be to to kind of come into that if you if kind of had to think back to the way that you and John started um superflux you know.
44:32.98
Anab Jain
Yeah I it's really tough to to say that because and we um, you know I can't um I feel responsibility for young people who who shouldn't um. You know I can't just say do it follow your dreams because you know follow aha and then that the reality is very different. You have to pay their bills and have to pay rent and and and so a lot of times my advice is to become really really good at at least 1 or few good skills when it comes to design skills.
44:51.32
Radha
Car.
44:59.37
Radha
And.
45:09.21
Radha
Um, you tell just issue public activity.
45:09.50
Anab Jain
Make sure that you can find a way to earn a living and do side hustles do many more side hustles do your own project start building your project start putting it out start talking to people who whom you want to question. Go to places where you want to interrogate power investigate the tools and methods that others have used in the past. So I think I do want to make sure that I Um, don't give this kind of blind ah adviser you know, just just go and figure it out and you know. You don't have to worry about you know we we lived very frugally we both come from fairly frugal backgrounds initially and um, in a way I I don't have any sort of um, sort of like.
46:01.88
Anab Jain
Shortcuts It was. It's not.. It's it's still a struggle. You know it's not easy doing this practice I don't necessarily want to even say my route was the ideal route and I do want to tell young people to not believe in the Hype. I Think that's really important not to get carried away by the hype but not to get carried away like really the most important thing that they can do is think critically um, question their own beliefs question how they are consuming media and the influence it's having on them I think.
46:28.22
Radha
Um.
46:39.98
Anab Jain
Above and over and about everything else they will really need to um, um, hold power within themselves to be able to to sort of dissect things happening around them in order to and not get dissuaded and swayed Around. Um. The kind of current opinion opinion notizing world I don't know whatever you call it. But yeah, the world but and.
47:04.22
Radha
So know and I I I appreciate that because you know like I remember being you know a recent grad coming out of architecture like twenty years ago and
47:19.53
Anab Jain
Um, yeah.
47:23.22
Radha
You know it was the top of the kind of the recession was at its height and it was the worst time of time to be in construction and um and. Um, you know we kept looking to like all these really shiny studios saying my God we want that but the realities of doing that right? Especially if you don't have an investor backing you or kind of the financial security right? right? like.
47:35.13
Anab Jain
Um, yeah, it's.
47:42.23
Anab Jain
Um, and of mom and dad. Yeah, it's very hard. Yes.
47:51.53
Radha
Right? Like it's really hard. It's really really hard you you're doing the sometimes maybe work that feels a little soulsucking during the daytime and then when you get home at dinner like from that until you decide to go to bed you're doing the stuff that feels more. Energizing and like that is the reality of it and I think um, you know you don't go from like 0 to to superflux accolades achievements design studio of the year um in a second and I think so much of that journey is um. Really marked by a spirit of curiosity and compassion. Um, so yeah, and so I just yeah I just appreciate that you kind of you said that because not a lot of people. Do.
48:33.25
Anab Jain
Yeah, know, yeah and and you know I mean my God like you know we started at the time and um the credit crisis 2008 which these are our best students we Nott even know about but right now in the U K we've been experiencing and. For obvious reasons for horrific reasons we have a cost of living Crisis. You know it's impossible for young people to to survive without having you know jobs and work and employment of some form. So So really, it is very challenging to be able to to. Navigate ah the conditions around you to be able to live in a time where War is being normalized to be able to live in a time where um and the cultural propaganda machines are full on full force to do to to find ah to make sense of it. So. I Genuinely think that um, reflecting thinking reading observing not believing in the hype not getting swayed but actually letting things come in and let ideas percolate really.
49:47.53
Anab Jain
The opposite of go go go go go is what we need right now and um, they have the luxury of time and they should use that time I think to to start to see you know what is this? What's going On. You know how are we as an entire. Generation being captured. What have we been captured by how do we break out of this and and and those are the bigger questions I really invite them to think about.
50:21.51
Radha
Um, I wish that I had that advice like twenty years ago fin really you know because there sometimes feels like there's such an urgency to kind of like um.
50:25.70
Anab Jain
Um, ah.
50:34.67
Anab Jain
Yeah.
50:36.30
Radha
To succeed in something instead of kind of having the space to question and and explore. But I guess one of the things that I'm I'm also just curious about is what do you feel like is maybe most misunderstood or misaligned in. In the work that you do.
50:56.57
Anab Jain
um um I think um I think the misalignment is what at 1 level. Ah we it's the it's the. Financial models and forecast and futures um models we need to decouple them so but they're deeply misaligned if we are working within a set of predetermined conditions that. Are benefiting x number of shareholders that need to be met every time. It is very hard for any decision maker within the organization to then suggest something else because at the end of the day. Everything that you're doing is. To make sure that there's a certain idea of growth that continues then that's the one of the biggest misalignment that we've struggled with is to to be able to say that well actually there are alterate business model and there's a lot on the table now already. But um, it is deemed very risky. So a lot of the work is actually um, enabling that organizational change internally within organizations. Um, how do you move from ah a place of insecurity and risk to a place of actually um.
52:28.63
Anab Jain
Becoming an enabler of change and I think so that's 1 big misalignment and the the the other one I find is more around. Ah the misalignment between people's ideas of their own individual dreams hopes and futures for them and their loved ones. And what's happening in the world in terms of our collective future. So that kind of everybody's like oh yeah, I really planned this holidays and I'm going to do this and I've invested this money and it's going to be in this pension fund and you know it's my children's graduation's going to be here and I'm gonna and.
52:54.65
Radha
And.
53:08.32
Anab Jain
Like planning their lives. Their children's lives 203040 years and looking around and going oh shit. Okay yes, okay, what does ° mean okay what what? like yeah you kids coming these jobs that I'm dreaming may not even exist. Okay, that.
53:12.19
Radha
Are.
53:24.94
Anab Jain
There is a real misalignment and and that is the gap. We really need to bring to close as well.
53:31.46
Radha
So in that line of thought I guess like what you know I know that climate I mean climate change is huge and it's a very very big kind of topic that feels top of mind and a lot of your work. But. What feels particularly kind of um like what's what's a future issue that you're either really excited about right now or just feels kind of like really important. For you to be thinking about what's what's kind of keeping you keeping you up at night I guess.
54:11.55
Anab Jain
Yeah, um I think at the minute these very sort of John and I and a lot of us in the studio are wrangling with this idea of how minds have been captured so and. We we and we trying to you know people talk about multipolar traps and people talk about sorts of um ways in which we're not able to ah you know we can't we can never remove ourselves from the system.
54:30.96
Radha
Um, yeah.
54:45.76
Anab Jain
And um, we can never really truly see ourselves outside of it. So So so how do we?? How do we? What do we need to do to be able to not just try and see it ourselves is that even possible. But Also how can we show that. Are captured to other people to the point that we are then able to show oh actually that could be other because I think unless fundamentally we don't recognize that. It's really hard to implement truly alternate systems at at Scale. So There's something we're really interested in thinking about things at scale and and change at scale and you know what will it take and who will need to do this? Um, there are pieceme things you know a lot of people talking about ideas around D growth lot of people contesting that idea.
55:26.57
Radha
And.
55:43.79
Anab Jain
People don't opposed grow Nos so already it's called post growth. Fine. All of that is great. We need counter narratives in and amongst everything but when I really go into ah ah into business meeting where. Say I'm talking to a technology company and then is still very much you know more devices more products more and how do we and so and recycling is make sure there are more recycling bins in the offices and you know only 1% of the.
56:11.33
Radha
Um, when I.
56:18.49
Anab Jain
Plastic that we're putting in the bins here in the Uk is actually getting recycled we are in so much trouble that it's so messed up and I don't even know how to wrap my head around I hold pieces of things in my hand going where should I put this like.
56:24.94
Radha
A.
56:38.53
Anab Jain
And like to hold loads of like plastic bubble wrap envelopes in the studio and things are like ah feeling paralyzed because we did a lot of research recently around circularity and material circular and it's just um, it's a trap.
56:41.20
Radha
Um, yeah.
56:55.20
Anab Jain
I Think so think it's it's It's really thinking through some of these big questions.
57:05.64
Radha
And I guess um I have like 2 more questions but I'm trying to decide which one to ask basically ah well well one? Um, so.
57:09.40
Anab Jain
Um, ask both ask? Yeah but.
57:22.46
Radha
You know you've said that I think it was in an interview where you said that the way that you John your partner sometimes describes what you do is that you you design questions. Um. And I guess my question is like how do you decide? How do you decide? what question to focus on because there's so many out there.
57:43.81
Anab Jain
Yeah, um, don't know it's It's really hard. Um, and I suppose that it's also my sort of pedagogical approach at design investigations I teach is um.
57:52.20
Radha
Um.
57:58.16
Anab Jain
Ah, to enable my students to learn to ask better questions or design questions. But I suppose ah, it's a conceptual framing in some ways to save it designing questions to open up the possibility space. Um, you know if you come with a brief to which you want a solution that space of possibility has already been reduced. So even when we get briefs sometimes we try and get them to become questions and in order. To to open up things that have not yet been explored at 1 level The other thing is we hold on to quite a few questions and they're not really ever really written out but they're more like themes or ideas and um.
58:56.74
Anab Jain
It is ah loose enough and ambiguous enough to allow things to fall in and out of it. So I think it's more about if we if we if we step outside of solutionism then then.
58:57.40
Radha
Um, and.
59:14.46
Radha
A.
59:14.97
Anab Jain
We become critical thinkers and in many ways, let the ai give us the solutions and let us as humans focus on the questions. But.
59:26.61
Radha
Um, that sounds like a beautiful world I would love that I'm done with solutioning. Ah.
59:37.85
Anab Jain
I mean I'm not I'm not ah you know if if if if my computer doesn't work I want a solution so I just to be like clear. It's it's it's the space.
59:47.27
Radha
And for sure. Yeah, absolutely absolutely and then I guess like my final question is and I and I pre-empt this by saying that I know you know everyone's practice evolves and like the things that feel most pertinent kind of change over time but like in this moment what feels like. Like a fantasy project that you would like to like to do.
01:00:15.29
Anab Jain
Oh my God Um, really um, it's really hard like I said I'm um, we want to work um with.
01:00:22.21
Radha
Um.
01:00:31.80
Anab Jain
Not so much. Ah, a specific project but with the idea that who wants to come on the journey with to make the change and I then will not be pick key as much as you know if a big business. Who has been responsible for a lot of the um say carbon emissions ah want to do can What is my role and and this is something we grapple with in terms of the ethics of it all the time in the studio and this is something.
01:01:02.44
Radha
Um, a a.
01:01:08.27
Anab Jain
Like where is the intent I Really want to understand if the intent is there and if you can see the desire to shift but I want to work with those who want to because I think unless we get big big players on board. Ah, nothing much will Change. So I think I'm interested in having conversations with those big players if possible and on the other hand ah at a very intellectual as a contextual and artistic and conceptual space is the space of ah um, um.
01:01:32.46
Radha
Um.
01:01:40.50
Anab Jain
Um, ah.
01:01:44.84
Anab Jain
Smoking holes at the system and and and showing these alternate perspectives um to kind of again Catalyze ah public imagination at at across scale. Um I say all this um, sitting here I'm. And most days in the studio and home and I teach and I run the studio and are just firefighting and we're a small team and we're just trying to do the things and scrambling moving along so when I sit back and reflect on it. But you know.
01:02:05.65
Radha
Physically.
01:02:19.90
Anab Jain
I Don't want to give the impression that I'm just sort of you know, having all these ideas and have all this time to experiment I Wish yeah.
01:02:21.24
Radha
Um, a yeah.
01:02:26.49
Radha
No, of course not yeah yeah, and that's why I like to I've been asking everyone that question because I think oftentimes we don't have the chance to kind of like just reflect and say in an ideal world. What would I love to do in this conceptual space of practice. You know.
01:02:38.70
Anab Jain
Um, exactly? Yeah yeah.
01:02:45.50
Anab Jain
Absolutely.
01:02:45.90
Radha
Um, and so it's it's sometimes a luxury to be able to think about that. Um well anop I just wanted to again. Thank you so much for your time and thank you for joining. Um, and for. Imparting some wisdom and just some of your experience with us today. Um.
01:03:01.00
Anab Jain
Um, no thank you I Really appreciate the questions and yeah, like it just helps create the space to reflect and think so yeah, thank you very much for having me.
01:03:13.50
Radha
Wonderful! Wonderful. Thank you June.